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	<title>Comments on: Deconstructing the Gaussian copula, part II</title>
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	<link>http://www.thisisthegreenroom.com/2009/deconstructing-the-gaussian-copula-part-ii/</link>
	<description>i am the stig</description>
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		<title>By: Sandrew</title>
		<link>http://www.thisisthegreenroom.com/2009/deconstructing-the-gaussian-copula-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-1245</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:39:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thisisthegreenroom.com/?p=1935#comment-1245</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the response, J.  I agree that, for a full CDO, joint default distributions matter for risk purposes if not for pricing.

BTW, some of us are still eagerly awaiting part III.  

Which reminds me... I wonder if in part III you could address the issue of static recovery assumptions.  This is more than the issue that market recovery inputs are difficult to observe (absent transparency into fair spreads for fixed- or zero-recovery swaps). Even if you have such data, it seems a problem--particularly in the pricing of senior tranches--that the standard SFGC model ignores recovery dynamics.  The simplest illustration of this problem is a super-senior 60-100 tranche where all recovery rates are 40%.  No correlation level will allocate losses to this tranche, since even if all reference credits default simultaneously, this tranche will walk away with their full principal.

I believe there are a few papers out there that describe proposed extensions to the SFGC model to introduce dynamic recovery.  I&#039;m not that familiar with these methods, so if someone could deconstruct them, that&#039;d be rad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the response, J.  I agree that, for a full CDO, joint default distributions matter for risk purposes if not for pricing.</p>
<p>BTW, some of us are still eagerly awaiting part III.  </p>
<p>Which reminds me... I wonder if in part III you could address the issue of static recovery assumptions.  This is more than the issue that market recovery inputs are difficult to observe (absent transparency into fair spreads for fixed- or zero-recovery swaps). Even if you have such data, it seems a problem--particularly in the pricing of senior tranches--that the standard SFGC model ignores recovery dynamics.  The simplest illustration of this problem is a super-senior 60-100 tranche where all recovery rates are 40%.  No correlation level will allocate losses to this tranche, since even if all reference credits default simultaneously, this tranche will walk away with their full principal.</p>
<p>I believe there are a few papers out there that describe proposed extensions to the SFGC model to introduce dynamic recovery.  I'm not that familiar with these methods, so if someone could deconstruct them, that'd be rad.</p>
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		<title>By: J</title>
		<link>http://www.thisisthegreenroom.com/2009/deconstructing-the-gaussian-copula-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-1232</link>
		<dc:creator>J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thisisthegreenroom.com/?p=1935#comment-1232</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s absolutely correct - a &quot;full&quot; CDO is nothing more than a bond portfolio, and we hardly need a correlation assumption to price it. However, from a risk management perspective (and this falls even outside the realm of the SFGC), the portfolio dynamics will depend on the correlation of its components. A more diverse portfolio will exhibit less volatility than one composed of very similar credits. Essentially, the expected value - or price - of two portfolios could be identical, but second-moment information would affect an investor&#039;s preference for one or the other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That's absolutely correct - a "full" CDO is nothing more than a bond portfolio, and we hardly need a correlation assumption to price it. However, from a risk management perspective (and this falls even outside the realm of the SFGC), the portfolio dynamics will depend on the correlation of its components. A more diverse portfolio will exhibit less volatility than one composed of very similar credits. Essentially, the expected value - or price - of two portfolios could be identical, but second-moment information would affect an investor's preference for one or the other.</p>
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		<title>By: Sandrew</title>
		<link>http://www.thisisthegreenroom.com/2009/deconstructing-the-gaussian-copula-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-1224</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 13:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thisisthegreenroom.com/?p=1935#comment-1224</guid>
		<description>One nit: 

&quot;A CDO is nothing more than a collection of various bonds... Both the timing and the correlation of defaults matter... This issue is compounded by the introduction of tranches.&quot;

Tranching does not COMPOUND the issue, it IS the issue.  Correlation does not matter until you introduce tranching. If you have a 0-100 &quot;CDO&quot;, which is the simple case you describe of holding a basket of bonds (or CDS if synthetic) sans tranching, that is identical to holding the same bonds (CDS) individually, with no basket to hold them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One nit: </p>
<p>"A CDO is nothing more than a collection of various bonds... Both the timing and the correlation of defaults matter... This issue is compounded by the introduction of tranches."</p>
<p>Tranching does not COMPOUND the issue, it IS the issue.  Correlation does not matter until you introduce tranching. If you have a 0-100 "CDO", which is the simple case you describe of holding a basket of bonds (or CDS if synthetic) sans tranching, that is identical to holding the same bonds (CDS) individually, with no basket to hold them.</p>
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		<title>By: J</title>
		<link>http://www.thisisthegreenroom.com/2009/deconstructing-the-gaussian-copula-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-1219</link>
		<dc:creator>J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 05:05:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thisisthegreenroom.com/?p=1935#comment-1219</guid>
		<description>Thank you, this is another great illustration of the idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, this is another great illustration of the idea.</p>
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		<title>By: J</title>
		<link>http://www.thisisthegreenroom.com/2009/deconstructing-the-gaussian-copula-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-1218</link>
		<dc:creator>J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 05:02:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thisisthegreenroom.com/?p=1935#comment-1218</guid>
		<description>The question is very sensitive to how it is phrased. First, the probability of &lt;em&gt;any single mine&lt;/em&gt; getting hit is the same, regardless of correlation. You can see this because the path across the bathtub is random, therefore the location of any single mine has no bearing on its likelihood of getting hit. However, with low correlation there is a greater chance of &lt;em&gt;more than one mine&lt;/em&gt; getting hit. In the extreme low correlation case of pure independence, then missing one mine has no bearing on you hitting any other; but with high correlation, missing one mine makes you very likely to miss others.

So, it&#039;s not that the *first* mine is more or less likely to be hit, it&#039;s that conditional on missing the first mine, the others are subsequently less likely to be hit.

For an example, consider a CDO made up of 100 banks. This is high correlation - they&#039;re either all defaulting, or all surviving. You want to own the equity here because if they all survive, which is a distinct possibility, you will get a huge payoff. But if you have a diversified portfolio, its less conceivable that every name will survive (since there is more idiosyncratic risk), and since there are less &quot;clear paths across the bathtub&quot;, you would rather have a stronger tranche.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question is very sensitive to how it is phrased. First, the probability of <em>any single mine</em> getting hit is the same, regardless of correlation. You can see this because the path across the bathtub is random, therefore the location of any single mine has no bearing on its likelihood of getting hit. However, with low correlation there is a greater chance of <em>more than one mine</em> getting hit. In the extreme low correlation case of pure independence, then missing one mine has no bearing on you hitting any other; but with high correlation, missing one mine makes you very likely to miss others.</p>
<p>So, it's not that the *first* mine is more or less likely to be hit, it's that conditional on missing the first mine, the others are subsequently less likely to be hit.</p>
<p>For an example, consider a CDO made up of 100 banks. This is high correlation - they're either all defaulting, or all surviving. You want to own the equity here because if they all survive, which is a distinct possibility, you will get a huge payoff. But if you have a diversified portfolio, its less conceivable that every name will survive (since there is more idiosyncratic risk), and since there are less "clear paths across the bathtub", you would rather have a stronger tranche.</p>
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		<title>By: R</title>
		<link>http://www.thisisthegreenroom.com/2009/deconstructing-the-gaussian-copula-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-1217</link>
		<dc:creator>R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 04:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thisisthegreenroom.com/?p=1935#comment-1217</guid>
		<description>One other thing that bothers me about the correlation description: you say explicitly that high correlation (clustered mines) &quot;leaves more clear paths across the bathtub&quot;.

Is this actually true for CDOs in real life? The implication would be that the odds of any single (first) default are lower for a highly-correlated basket than for a diversified one.

Why and how would this be the case?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One other thing that bothers me about the correlation description: you say explicitly that high correlation (clustered mines) "leaves more clear paths across the bathtub".</p>
<p>Is this actually true for CDOs in real life? The implication would be that the odds of any single (first) default are lower for a highly-correlated basket than for a diversified one.</p>
<p>Why and how would this be the case?</p>
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		<title>By: R</title>
		<link>http://www.thisisthegreenroom.com/2009/deconstructing-the-gaussian-copula-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-1216</link>
		<dc:creator>R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 04:32:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thisisthegreenroom.com/?p=1935#comment-1216</guid>
		<description>Just a random comment. I read this earlier when I was trying to explain tranching and correlation to a friend. The &quot;bathtub&quot; analogy didn&#039;t go over so well, but I came up with another that did. I&#039;m offering it here because it might be more accessible to most people&#039;s experience:

Think of a freeway with random cars traveling along it (the &quot;mines&quot;). Add another car (the &quot;boat&quot;) trying to pass through at high speed --- a police chase, or a video game like SpyHunter.

Then as above, if the cars are fairly evenly dispersed (low correlation), a collision with one is unlikely to result in a second collision. But if the cars are traveling in clusters (high correlation), one collision will most likely cause a multi-car pileup.

And if the &quot;boat&quot; car is a lightweight sports car, a single collision will wipe it out (equity investors). But if it&#039;s a Hummer or Range Rover, it might handle several collisions (senior investors) and therefore prefers low correlation.

Just thought this might be helpful! (NB: I&#039;m a humanities grad student, not a finance guy, but I&#039;ve done a lot of reading and think I understand this...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a random comment. I read this earlier when I was trying to explain tranching and correlation to a friend. The "bathtub" analogy didn't go over so well, but I came up with another that did. I'm offering it here because it might be more accessible to most people's experience:</p>
<p>Think of a freeway with random cars traveling along it (the "mines"). Add another car (the "boat") trying to pass through at high speed --- a police chase, or a video game like SpyHunter.</p>
<p>Then as above, if the cars are fairly evenly dispersed (low correlation), a collision with one is unlikely to result in a second collision. But if the cars are traveling in clusters (high correlation), one collision will most likely cause a multi-car pileup.</p>
<p>And if the "boat" car is a lightweight sports car, a single collision will wipe it out (equity investors). But if it's a Hummer or Range Rover, it might handle several collisions (senior investors) and therefore prefers low correlation.</p>
<p>Just thought this might be helpful! (NB: I'm a humanities grad student, not a finance guy, but I've done a lot of reading and think I understand this...)</p>
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		<title>By: J</title>
		<link>http://www.thisisthegreenroom.com/2009/deconstructing-the-gaussian-copula-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-1213</link>
		<dc:creator>J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 23:49:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thisisthegreenroom.com/?p=1935#comment-1213</guid>
		<description>Great point - I completely agree. I hadn&#039;t thought of it in those terms, but the CAPM would be an excellent distillation for a SFGC student.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great point - I completely agree. I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but the CAPM would be an excellent distillation for a SFGC student.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.thisisthegreenroom.com/2009/deconstructing-the-gaussian-copula-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-1208</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 22:20:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thisisthegreenroom.com/?p=1935#comment-1208</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s interesting to me how a similar move, breaking risk into systematic and idiosyncratic risks, was essentially for the initial discovery CAPM model of equity returns.   I like the feeedback because the move was a result of complexity in an exponential number of parameters (like the CDS), but then that model influenced how people invested, and now there&#039;s talk about the way people invested (asset allocations on betas) has mucked up the returns it was supposed to model, as many financial observers are concluding.

Performativity always wins in the end.

I&#039;m excited for part III.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It's interesting to me how a similar move, breaking risk into systematic and idiosyncratic risks, was essentially for the initial discovery CAPM model of equity returns.   I like the feeedback because the move was a result of complexity in an exponential number of parameters (like the CDS), but then that model influenced how people invested, and now there's talk about the way people invested (asset allocations on betas) has mucked up the returns it was supposed to model, as many financial observers are concluding.</p>
<p>Performativity always wins in the end.</p>
<p>I'm excited for part III.</p>
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